A clean transcript

INTRODUCTION

Being made in Washington, March 21st, 1974.

INTRODUCTION

Zaide is going to speak on the tape.

ZAIDE

I have not written biography of my family. It was my destiny and the will of God we shall travel from country to country. In memories, I will relate. It's simply either of my own memory of what I have been told by my father and mother. My father's writing from what he told me. I found out that my father's grandfather, whose name, if my memory serves me right, was Shabtai. He was a rabbi in a small place, Kostiukovich, which was in the state of Chernigov at the end of the Pale of Settlement with Russia. A few miles from there started the real Russia, where Jews have been forbidden to live. This was in these days where Jewish children were caught at a very young age, from six to 12, and have been sent away in the Ural, into Volga, or in other remote places of the Russian Empire to serve on a farm or any other place up to 18. And then they had to serve to the king 25 years. The Russians also had to serve 25 years. But when a Russian went to serve, he would take himself his wife, or he married in the army. And the Jewish people have been at this disadvantage because they couldn't observe their religious rights, and the chances of getting married while in the army was nil. The object of taking such a young children was in Russia because they wanted them to be assimilated, and it was one of the quickest way to assimilate them. I really care if they were assimilated in Russia.

CHANA POUPKO

In other words, even in that time, the Tsar wanted them assimilated?

ZAIDE

A member of the cabinet, if I'm not mistaken, the inner minister, explained three objects of doing this. In Russia, they're never permitted Jews to live. However, when Poland was divided between the three powers, Russia, Prussia, and Austria, it came on the lot of Russia a million Jews who lived before in the territory of Poland. And now to let them go into Russia was impossible because Russia didn't want them. So they had to stay in Ukraine, or in Belarus, or in Lithuania that used to belong to Poland, and now they belong to Russia. And the Russian government thought a very simple method. A third of it should be assimilated, a third of it should immigrate, and a third of it will starve because the economical conditions were very poor.

CHANA POUPKO

Okay, go ahead.

ZAIDE

So every community had to give several children, three or five or eight, and it was the duty of the heads of the Jewish communities to provide these children, which was a very painful task. Unfortunately, they always find Jewish hoodlums who used to take a price, let's say 50 roubles or 100 roubles, and snatch a Jewish child. They couldn't snatch a rich child because the rich man bought himself out from the hoodlums. But mostly they got a poor child, and once they snatched him, they kidnapped him, he was lost to his parents. In one summer day, the hoodlums came to that little town, and they were roaming around to catch a child. When the parents got wind, they kept the children in the houses because it was forbidden to take a child from the house. So they looked in the streets. Across the street from my grandfather's house, my great-grandfather's, was a tailor by the name Schlame, and he had one child, and that child went to cheder, to the Hebrew school that was in those days, and coming back in the late afternoon, the hoodlums noticed him, and they snatched him, and they want to put him in the wagon. The wagon was the kind that it was barred from all sides like a dog catcher's wagon.

ZAIDE

My great-grandmother, being the wife of the rabbi and a Hosky woman, had in her mind, in her hand, she had a big stick, and she chased the wagon, and by force, she took out the child and took him in her home. And the law was that you cannot take a child from home, and you can't take a child from a rabbi's house. So the hoodlum lost his income of the few dollars, and he didn't have the child. But he told to the rabbi's wife, all right, I'll get him with you, and it wouldn't take long either. A few months later, pace of night, while the family was sitting at the Seder, and the family consisted of the rabbi, and his wife, and two boys. One boy was called Dov Ber.

CHANA POUPKO

What?

ZAIDE

The other boy, if I'm not mistaken, his name was Avroham Leib, and these four had been sitting at the Seder, and three masked men came in, and they snatched both boys, which was several violations, even under the Russian cruel law. It was forbidden to take children at night. It was forbidden to take them on a holiday. It was forbidden to take them from a rabbi's house. It was forbidden to take more than one at a time, and the age was supposed to be above six and below 12. In this case, it was one below six, and one was a little above 12. Then the rabbi and his wife went out to cry for help in the middle of the night. There was nobody, and next morning, when they came to the police, the police said, well, we'll go, we will look, and with their complacency, they didn't look and the children were lost. The rabbi and his wife didn't last too long, and from aggravation, one died six months later, the other one died 15 months later.

CHANA POUPKO

Daddy, you know all this from your dad's memoirs?

ZAIDE

From my father's memoirs.

CHANA POUPKO

From your father's memoirs?

CHANA POUPKO

Yeah.

CHANA POUPKO

He wrote them down?

CHANA POUPKO

Yeah.

CHANA POUPKO

Where are they?

ZAIDE

I will find it.

CHANA POUPKO

Are they in Yiddish?

ZAIDE

In Musnaki and Russia. Yiddish, either Yiddish or Russian. The younger brother that got lost, Avroham Leib, was found out more than a century later by my brother, Zalman Leib, who calls himself Lev Kazachkov, in the Ural section, and they are already Russians, and they don't know anything of their past history, except their physical outlooks look similar to ours, and the family name Kazachkov has never changed. The day the grandfather...

CHANA POUPKO

Who was Dov Ber?

ZAIDE

Dov Ber was already 12, that means he had a sufficient Jewish education and Jewish consciousness. He had been immediately sent away to a different town and from town to town until he reached the Volga region. The Volga region used to be lived many Germans who came to settle in Russia because the possibilities of agriculture and of material conditions were much better than in Germany, and he landed in a German farmhouse to tend geese, and there he spent six years. Since he, by that time, 12 years he was conscious, he suffered tremendously, and most of the time he lived on bread and water, but he didn't want to eat treif. At the age of 18, he was taken away from there and was enlisted in the Russian army in cavalry, that means a horseman. By that time, it happened to be a series of wars between the Turks and the Russians in the Crimea-Penya Insula and in the Azov region, and grandfather was an active soldier. It came a time where he was an adjutant to a general, and while the general was riding on his horse, his horse was wounded and ran away wild, and the general fell down, was on the horse with his head down, hitting it on the cobblestones, and great- grandfather saved him. He was presented to the higher authority for award because he saved the general's life. The general happens to be a distant relative of the king's family.

ZAIDE

Therefore, he was called before the general governor of Moscow and was given an extra privilege that he could live all over Russia and Siberia wherever he chose.

CHANA POUPKO

And that he could leave the army?

ZAIDE

No, the army has to stay. And he was also awarded some other privileges that Jews were not awarded. He completed his 25-year services, and by that time, he was a man of 43, because of the days of cannonade and tumult, he lost his hearing. And because he was not in touch for 30- some years with Jewish people, he forgot practically everything he learned. He could hardly read in the siddur and in the Chumash with difficulties, and his Jewish language was mixed with the whole lot of Russian. When he was relieved from the army, he came back to his hometown, and he found there nobody. The previous generation has gone, and several pogroms made the other people move to various places. And those who came were new people who didn't know him. He found a distant relative, a girl of 14 years old, who was a second cousin of his, who came from a nearby town and whose parents had been killed in a pogrom. And she, a 14-year-old girl, without father and mother, was very helpless. Since he was a pharaoh of Minsk [unclear phrase], he brought from the army some money, so he married this girl. And this happens to be my grandmother, and her Jewish name was Enya. I remember her distinctly because she lived in a very long, ripe age. A very sturdy woman, extraordinary clever. She knew how to read in the siddur very fluently, and she knew the Tanakh almost by heart, but very slow to read inside. I don't have exact records.

ZAIDE

I never ask my father how long they spent there, but apparently, with the conditions in the pale there, he apparently couldn't find any ways of living. And he took up the offer from the Russian government to go away in the far away distance of Siberia, near the Chinese border, where the Russians have prison camps for criminals, and more than for criminals, for political. Russia was hit with revolution, and anybody who was suspected of this reality had been sent away in those remote camps.

CHANA POUPKO

And he was gonna be what?

ZAIDE

And there, he was appointed to things. They used to take out gold sent from the river, and it went through several sieves to clear it, so he was to watch it should not be stolen. And at the same time, he should watch, be a warning for the prisoners. The prisoners should not be understood in the sense that an employee of the government, but he was some sort of a representative of the citizens of Russia to watch for the protection of the prisoners. Why would... I have to explain what it means a warning for the protection of citizens. In 1882, King Alexander II has been assassinated. He was a liberal king by Russian standards, since he freed the Serb in 1861. However, after he was assassinated, it came on the throne Alexander III, a very reactionary king, and it start repression against anyone who was suspected of plotting against the throne or asking for liberalization. And anybody suspected was sent away in Siberia. Sent away in Siberia what means doom. However, like Kovach and Roshi was two streams, one very reactionary and the other extremely liberal. And there has been a pressure of the society to give some protection to the prisoners who are in Siberia under the veil of officials who are merciless and cruel. So therefore, it has been organized in each town, committees of one or two or three who should watch for the interests of these prisoners as much as possible.

ZAIDE

And grandfather was one of those who had another couple. Now, there was no capital punishment in Russia at all, not even for criminals, but there was capital punishment for politically if they murdered somebody who was in official duty. Now those who were sent away in Siberia have not been killed, but they have been given sometimes very hard labor and many, many years of isolationism. So grandfather settled there and in length of time, he opened there a business, a drug business and became extremely successful.

CHANA POUPKO

I mean, at the same time that he was watching over the prisoners?

ZAIDE

He stayed at home, but the prisoner is watching when I complain to him. You see, I complain to him. Now, in Joseph at that time, that a Jewish man from the Pale of Settlement was accused in two things. He was accused in giving a night to sleep for a political fugitive and in arson of a house. Both accusations were false, but he didn't have the means to defend himself. He was sent away for seven years in Siberia. This man was very pious and grandfather happened to know this man and he extended him a hand of grace to help. Wait, he knew him but from the prison.

CHANA POUPKO

That's what he knew from prison?

ZAIDE

That's right. He offered it to the Russian authorities. Something had been done all over Russia. He will let the food, the allocation of food for the officials to have and he will feed him from his own pocket. As long as he is allowed to eat, the food is permissible for Jews to eat. And of his own responsibility, he took him home to sleep. And even the amount of work he has to be done was easy for him or he paid other prisoners to do it. And this man spent a number of years in our house and he served us as the man to slaughter kosher meat and as a teacher. He was a man of extremely high moral. He left his whole country to buy from children and he was compelled to divorce them because there was no hopes ever united. There were very few scattered Jews in that section and the opportunities were tremendous. After a few years, a son was born and this was my father. And since it was a great joy, he was named Simcha. And he was named, apparently, after one of his grandmother's ancestors, Daniel, Simcha Daniel. When the child became at the age of five, it became a big problem.

CHANA POUPKO

How can we raise the child, one child in a Jewish way?

ZAIDE

So decided to send him to Russia.

CHANA POUPKO

What about that person?

ZAIDE

One man, he can. At the age of three, he learned them, the aleph-bet, he learned them, he moved them down. But grandfather, in spite of that, that he had very little learning, he had a great craving that his posterity should remain Jewish. And the influence of the rabbi, Sheikha [name/word unclear], was tremendous. You have to bear in mind that the Siberian railroad did not exist in those days. And the farthest people could go by rail, by the primitive rail, is only up to the Ural Mountains. And the Ural Mountains were Europe's borders with Asia. That was considered the end of the world. And then it start a journey by months, months, months through the impenetrable taiga, the heavy woods of Siberia, or the heavy winter. But people who wanted to go to Siberia used to go to Southern Russia, to the city of Odessa. And then they boarded the ship in the Black Sea. And the Black City ship used to go into Mediterranean and see the Suez Canal already was in existence in those days. So they went through the Suez Canal into the Indian Ocean and went to the city of Shanghai in China. And from Shanghai, they came to Vladivostok. Vladivostok. And some of them turned to the extreme north and they went to the Ahotsk River close to the Kamchatka Peninsula. A journey like that took several months, but it was less dangerous and less tedious than to go through the Siberian Way by horses.

ZAIDE

So grandmother, who was already a woman about 19, with the sanctioning of grandfather, then took that boy and went away to a tedious trip to Europe. It took her four months and she brought him to Europe. And if my memory serves me right, that father was landed in a city of Brisk, who was somewhere between Lithuania and Poland, a city of scholars, in the house of a rabbi to learn Torah. And grandmother returned by herself and lived there.

CHANA POUPKO

How could she part with them?

ZAIDE

It's very hard. No, it's a journey of the mind. When grandmother returned back, which the round trip took her nearly eight months, she couldn't track her grandfather. His nostalgia after his wife and his son was so great that he became physically ill. By that time, the sheikh had finished his term and was ready to return back to Russia. Two things happened. In order for an ex-prisoner to come back to Russia, they needed the permission of his town to let him in. And the Russian anti- Semites didn't want to give him permit to come to his town. So finally, by help of friends, he decided to be among the very early immigrants to far away United States. Then grandfather offered them a very lucrative amount of money to pay monthly. But he shall stay because by that time, two girls have been born. And grandfather want them too to give a Jewish education. And grandfather want him to stay with us. And there are a few more Jews, and he is the one who used to be the connecting man to make the minion of Russian young keeper. So he stayed on with us for longer. Father stayed there until he became almost 80 years old. In Brest. Where ever he was born. In Brest, from time to time, he traveled to other towns. And he learned Tehran. All he learned is the entire Tanakh and was very thoroughly versed in the Talmud. In Russia, he was.

ZAIDE

And then it came the time, during this time, say the one time traveled to Russia and visited him only one time. And then it came a time he has to go in the Russian army. And Zayde thought that the best way was to go in cavalry because Zayde was in cavalry. Now, it came a problem of marriage. So Zayde remind himself that there was another Jewish soldier with him by the name Oshedierov. And that Oshedierov also got a privilege from Russian government that he could settle in Russia proper, which was an extraordinary privilege. And he acquired a small forest in the vicinity of Oryol where he cleared up and had a farm. And there he married a Jewish woman from somewhere. Her name was Dwire. So this was the friend who was in the army.

CHANA POUPKO

The friend, this was your Zayde friend?

ZAIDE

My Zayde friend. And he settled there and became wealthy. And he had 10 sons and four daughters.

CHANA POUPKO

Then Zayde came to him and says, how old is your older daughter, Malki?

ZAIDE

She's about 16. He says, I have a son and you have slim chance to get married. And this girl was destined to be my mother. It was a very hard job for that rich man Oshedierov to depart with his older daughter, but he finally agreed. And father married her and she even there. And he served in cavalry not very far from our hometown on the Amur River near the Chinese border. We came at that time already closer to the 20th century. And another brother was born, another son.

CHANA POUPKO

To whom?

ZAIDE

To my father, the first son.

CHANA POUPKO

Oh, the first son?

ZAIDE

The first son. And finally the Rebbe left us. The Rebbe left and the Rebbe left.

CHANA POUPKO

Did your father ever wanted to go back to the pale?

ZAIDE

Oh, so then father decided, since nobody would take away our land and everything, he would go back to the pale. He came back to the pale and he settled in a city of Klintsy where my great-grandfather lived there many, many years ago. He found a fine Jewish community with factories across the roads. And he opened a business and we settled there. And there- So Klintsy is in the pale. Klintsy is hardly in the pale.

CHANA POUPKO

What's in the pale?

CHANA POUPKO

Near what?

ZAIDE

Near Bryansk. Bryansk already not in the pale. Maybe a childhood. Then on October 18, 1898, a day after Yom Kippur, here where I was born, the fourth child in a family.

CHANA POUPKO

Okay?

CHANA POUPKO

Yeah.

ZAIDE

As I told you before, my mother's father lived in the village of Nivna.

ZAIDE

He had 10 sons. He had a son, Isaac Leib, which was my mother's brother. And this uncle, Isaac Leib, has 10 sons, which was my mother's nephew, in my question. My mother kept very close to her family, and her family were close to us. Although they lived out of the pale. But it was only a few hundred kilometers, and trains used to go. So, they visited very often, and the family ties were very close. Meanwhile, the old teacher who was with us in Siberia, apparently finding difficulties in making a Hebrew school. And oh, our children went to his school. He was the best teacher I could ever imagine, since he knew perfectly the Russian as well as the Hebrew language. He learned with us thoroughly the entire Bible and the prophets. In the evenings, he told us the tales and legends and Jewish folklore.

CHANA POUPKO

Did you go to Russian school?

CHANA POUPKO

Yeah.

ZAIDE

Now, Russian Jewish children in Russia could not go to school because Shabbos, they had to work and to write. And this, again, the Jewish law. Besides, she was already in the pale, a very strict norm for the Jewish children. The norm was in accordance with the Jewish population. In universities, for example, no more than one or two percent. In high school, sometimes 10 percent. And this has to be given to the most excellent students. There was no even taught for me to go to a regular school because of Shabbos. However, we had private tutoring and the private tutoring followed the program of the official schools. And at any time, anybody could take examinations. And this was called externa. That means people who had private education and the same time they could get a matriculation. So we had Russian teachers. I was lucky to have a woman by the name Snarskaya. She was a very high educated woman and came from about the same section of Oryol where my mother comes from. And when my mother was young, they both had one private teacher woman. By the way, my mother was very well versed in Russian poetry and practically at

ZAIDE

In 1903, Russia was embroiled in a war with Japan. And when the war was finished with a defeat for Russia, the Russian government, to divert their attention to the public, encouraged pogroms and there was a wave of pogroms all over Russia. And even in Klintsy, where the population was very small, was also a pogrom in September 1905. Father decided he will go and see what is going on in Israel, then called Palestine. He went away there. Unfortunately, he got sick with malaria and eye sickness. Nevertheless, he would stay there, but it came a call for him in reserve and he had to return to Russia to stay a while in reserve. When he came back, the children were small and the business grew very big and he couldn't go away. And he, sadly, in Palestine was postponed from year to year. Of course, his prosperity in the country grew and so his business grew and we approached the year 1911. My father wanted me to have some more Jewish education, but the Lithuanian is very far and my knowledge of Yiddish language was very poor.

CHANA POUPKO

But didn't you speak Yiddish in the house?

ZAIDE

I'll read it closer. I want to think. Our Yiddish was so much mixed with Russian, so just like your Yiddish would be much better.

CHANA POUPKO

Okay.

ZAIDE

There were in our city few people who prayed in the style of the Ari, the what we call Hasidim. And we were told that in the city of Lubavitch, which is in the region of Vitebsk, the other side of the Pale, there is a yeshiva where I could go and advance my studies. To go far away in the Lithuania would be too far and Poland was still farther away and we are not used to that living. So father went with me to that Lubavitch yeshiva, which was a very, very far distance from the city of Klintsy. We came there and we found 700 boys in a yeshiva from the ages from 8 to the ages to 20. The people at the office in the administration, I showed my father that I would feel myself at home.

CHANA POUPKO

How many miles away from home was it?

ZAIDE

This was approximately 1500 kilometers, which by that standards when no airplanes were and trains very poor was considered very, very far away. Well, my father hired me a room in one of the richest houses since money was no object.

CHANA POUPKO

Let me ask you something, what happened to Lev?

ZAIDE

Lev landed only after 12 years in cheder and that's all.

CHANA POUPKO

He didn't want to go on?

ZAIDE

No, it wasn't. At that time, father didn't know about Lubavitch, but when he noticed that his education got short, so he was...

CHANA POUPKO

Are you the second?

ZAIDE

Yeah, I'm the second. So they assured my father I would feel myself at home. And really in trolley, they showed so much tolerance to me and they were so patient with me. So after a few

ZAIDE

And pretty soon, the Russians start to mobilize young men of 19, 18, 17, and 16 to prepare for war. Well, while father was not revolutionary, he had very little desire to go to war. My older brother was already at the age where he had to go to the army. As for myself, I was still young and father decided to let me go away from Russia. And if possible, to escape to the United States.

CHANA POUPKO

Wait a minute, why were you supposed to escape again now?

ZAIDE

Because the Russians took children, 14 and 15, they sent them away a few hundred miles to the south and made them dig trenches to prepare for the army.

CHANA POUPKO

Where was Uncle Lev?

ZAIDE

Uncle Lev was in the place and he already was enlisted.

CHANA POUPKO

Okay, go ahead.

ZAIDE

So now they're going to try to get you out of Russia. The only way to get out of Russia was to go away through Siberia to Manchuria, which was ruled by Russia and China together. And the border there was not very street guarded. And from China to go to Japan and from Japan to United States. It was a very long and risky trip.

CHANA POUPKO

Wait a minute, your father rather wanted you to leave the country than to dig trenches?

ZAIDE

No, not to dig trenches, that means once I am in Russia, they wouldn't let me out and I would be in the war.

CHANA POUPKO

You'd be fighting?

CHANA POUPKO

Sure.

ZAIDE

My father gave me 600 rubles, which was in that time a big fortune. And bought me tickets and packed my little section and I went away to Manchuria with the intention to go to Japan and to go to the United States.

CHANA POUPKO

Okay, so you were going by yourself or with Santa Sarah?

ZAIDE

Man, on January the 19th and 1916, I started my trip to Manchuria. It was a three-weeks trip by railroad. I have to change 10 or 11 trains on the way. And for Shabbos, of course, I stopped over in a railroad station. I stayed for 24 hours. At the end of three weeks, in the early days of February, I crossed the borderline of Manchuria with not too many difficulties and I came to the city of Harbin. I do recall the day, it was Tuesday, and it was a 50 below zero frost. It was very cold. And I had an address to go to a fellow who lived many years ago in Klintsy. And as a revolutionary, he escaped. And under a different name, he lived in Harbin. And I came over there. And after I noticed that Harbin is a heaven for refugees, for all those who wanted to desert the Russian army, and the Russians were not very strict, I have decided not to go in a hurry to the United States, but stay on for a while in Manchuria. I found myself a job in a stationery store which gave me 25 rubles a week and a chance to learn a little bit of Chinese language, which I wanted very much. Came the summer, I got me some friends, and I start to like the town of Harbin. And while I have with me plenty of money, I start to send merchandise from Harbin to Russia that at that time was starving for merchandise in the war went on and on.

ZAIDE

It proved to be a very profitable thing to send merchandise from Harbin to Russia. And I engaged in this business over a year and a half. Father used to send me money and I used to send him merchandise. After a year and a half, the Germans took a great chunk of Russia, and Russia was in a very, very bad shape, and they start to haunt those who escaped in Harbin. I found out that it is not safe anymore in Harbin, and I made an attempt to go to Japan. However, the borders were already watched, not as before. One day late in December, I got with another group of boys, and we decided that since the train was being watched very much, to hire a Chinese man, and he shall take us with the horse and buggy 225 miles to the southern Manchurian border, which was under Japanese control. We traveled for six days in very cold days. We traveled mostly in the daytime, and overnight we stopped in a Chinese house. And 14 miles before we reached the Japanese border, a group of Russian gendarmes, police, were waiting for us. Apparently they had been tipped off, and we were arrested, and they'd been brought back in the city of Harbin. There we were all jailed, and there was a danger that we would all be tried like military deserters, although we have never been listed in the army. After spending over three or four days in jail, some Jewish people outside tried for us and succeeded to take us out.

ZAIDE

Up to the present day, I don't know who they are and who they were, but it looks that all these who were with me, practically every one of us, came out, and some of them were really those who deserted from the front. Well, I couldn't stay anymore in Harbin, and I went away to the small places in Mongolia. For a while in Khaylar, Tsitsigar, Tel Ajo. But I used to come very often in Harbin, and after two, three months, I decided to make another attempt, and this time I went to the maritime Russian province of Nikolsk-Syrych, and from there to Vladivostok, in order to get a boat to go to Japan. In the city of Vladivostok, I stayed in a sailor house where many revolutionaries stayed there and many sailors, and the Russian government were so busy with the work that they didn't have a chance to look after us. And finally, one afternoon, while going to the boat, in the section called the Gershelt, I was apprehended by a Russian gendarme who asked me for my passport, and I had a passport whom I obtained at the sailor house from a Finnish sailor who was drowned, under the name Eli Marjama Haukipudas. And this gendarme happened to know

ZAIDE

If not for my younger days and good health, I wouldn't make it. Then he brought me to the city jail. He made one foolish mischief. He bent down the horse and put with his left hand behind the gate to open the gate. I utilized that very second, and with great force I tore up my hand from the strap and I ran away. In the darkness of the night he gave two, three shots and missed. And I ran away, and I had hidden myself among the freight trains, and tomorrow morning I was again in the sailor house in hiding, and a few days later I found another boat that ran away to Tsuruga, to Japan, and there they let me in on the very bottom of the boat, near the machinery, and I escaped to Japan. In the lower end of the deck I spent 28 days. The heat was over 100 at all times. It was water and plenty of insects, humid, and the stench was impossible, unbearable. I got a terrible seasickness. I didn't keep for days, but apparently that my good constitution, my younger days helped me to survive. I landed in Tsuruga, and two days later I felt well. I didn't have any trouble to land in Japan. I came there and I looked for European families. I found a Jewish family by the name of Shariro, and I told him I'm a fugitive from Russia, and it made me feel that I'm not lost. I got myself a job at an Australian firm Crawford to unpack dishes.

ZAIDE

I've worked for a few days, and then by that I found out that goes on a good export business from there to Russia, and one morning I got up and I found out a revolution broke out in Russia, and the whole government and the Tsar are gone, and to my amazement I found out that in southern Manchuria were hundreds, maybe thousands of Russian refugees who escaped during the past 25 years from Russia. They were revolutionaries, and now they are ready to go home. In two weeks time we found many Russian revolutionaries who for years lived in California, in other parts of the states, and now they are returning home, and we start to get the Russian papers where they promised a new era. I wanted right away to go back to Russia, but received a letter from my father that he indicate me stay for a while, let the storm go over, and he wrote me in Hebrew word, Chaveikim atrega ad yav er zoa. That is from Isaiah chapter 27. I started to be interested in doing some export business to Russia. I got acquainted with a Japanese family by the name Utako. They befriended me very much. I start very diligently to learn the Japanese language. Got acquainted with the son and the daughter.

ZAIDE

The father was a high official in the Ministry of Agriculture, and the son was in the export business, the daughter was in the custom house, and I started to do export business, and the home of those people was actually my second home. I hired myself a room in the city of Tarumi, which is not very far from the port city of Kobe. By that time came in a number of people who escaped from United States because United States also joined the First World War, and they didn't want to go in the Russian army. So there have been three boys from the states, one from Australia, and three from Russia, seven white fellows, and since I was the only one who spoke Japanese, who made money, so we rented the house, we coded the commune of eight, and in that day, they led a communist life, but I was the only one who was engaged in the export business, and earned enough to support the whole gang. After a year or so, it looked that the Bolsheviks little by little overtook the Russian Empire, and I decided to go home. I was longing very much to my parents. I went to Korea, and from there I came to the city where many, many years ago my grandfather lived.

ZAIDE

Of course, I didn't find anybody, but I wrote to my brother, my older brother, and to my sister, to my father, and my sister, my brother came there, and there we found out that the export business from Russia to Russia is very bad, because the Civil War just started, and Russia was torn up in many, many small pieces, and every region with a separate government. After struggling there for a while, my brother left back to Russia, and I and my sister decided to join our parents in Klintsy. We started to the tedious journey right before Hanukkah, and it took us 100 days. We changed 15 trains, and finally we reached home for Pesach. Shortly after Pesach, as a result of the Civil War, the Reds won't start back to come to our town, the town that was governed before by independent Ukrainian government.

CHANA POUPKO

Was it still Klintsy?

ZAIDE

Father felt that his life is not very safe under the Bolsheviks, so he started to make plans to go abroad, the time was short, he went to the city of Gomel, and from there he escaped in Bolin, and mother remained in Klintsy with... Two, three days later I was arrested in the street. They accused me that I helped the white ones, that means the those who were against the Red, and counter-revolution. Well, we were 11 arrested, but next morning two of us were remained, the other nine had been shot. By justice I was arrested with no reason, I was freed without a reason.

CHANA POUPKO

How old were you?

ZAIDE

Eight and a half [unclear; this age does not fit the surrounding chronology], and then I decided to... I will go away. A miracle happened, one day they took me for interrogation, I met there a man whom I met two years ago in Harbin, under very peculiar circumstances.

ZAIDE

I roomed with a family of Karajts, who consider themselves partly Jewish, in Harbin, and one time while I was eating in a Jewish restaurant, a fellow came in and said to me, I'm a student and I'm hungry, would you pay for my meal?

ZAIDE

I said sure, and I paid for his meal, then he came to my room and told me that he has nowhere to sleep, he's afraid for the police, and I let him sleep, and he came to me dressed like a woman, with a big shawl, and then before midnight he ran away, and an hour later the police came and told me that he was a murderer, who killed two guards in the University of Tomsk, three thousand miles away, and they were looking for him, but they found out that he escaped through the windows, using his steps backwards, so they couldn't find out where he came from.

ZAIDE

The police kept me for a day and let me go, and now I found that the chief interrogator was the same man, and after he let me free, he says to me, what can I do for you?

ZAIDE

I have not forgotten you, I said all you can do for me, let me go out of the country. He gave me documents assuring that I'm in the intelligence secret services for the communist, and he let me go out of the country. I wanted to reach the city of Rovno, where my father is.

CHANA POUPKO

Was your father with your mother?

ZAIDE

No, my mother was alone. I reached up to the city of Luninets. In Luninets I found out that goes on it a mile from there, a front between the Russians and Ukrainians, and while I was walking in the street, two Russians stopped me and asked me how come at this age I am not in the war, and before they let me finish my sentence, they took me and put

ZAIDE

Before they let me finish my sentence, they took me and put me in a train to send me away in the city of Odessa. Less than 24 hours I was sitting in Odessa and they enlisted me in the army. I had the coincident that placed me in the cavalry. They sent me to the Ukrainian front in the riot- quelling squad. There I came in and the first time in my life I came in the particularly Jewish Pale. I found out that the Ukrainians and the Galicians and partly the Russians destroyed hundreds of communities and thousands, ten thousands of Jews had been slaughtered. I found actually cities devastated and the first time in my life I came with a close contact with Jewish masses. After being there a few months I was thrown to the Persian border in the city of Armavir, not far from Baku. There again we quelled the resistance and they sent me away to the northern front around Leningrad. There again I was taken part in the cleanup and it came to the main fight, Siberia, which was occupied by Admiral Kolchak. They put us in a train to send me away on the Siberian front to Admiral Kolchak. Jordan was very hard on, the fight was going on ceaselessly. Every town put up a resistance, but they kept on moving eastward and eastward. After a few months we reached the city of Krasnoyarsk, we proceeded to go to Irkutsk.

ZAIDE

At that time, of course, I left my horse in the Ural, they gave me new ones and before long we were stationed at the 'Nigerian' border [word unclear] and I was put in charge on the border guard. At that time I made up my mind that I would try to cross the border. Unfortunately, they sent me back to Turkestan, I spent some time in Tashkent, in Markanda, the Afghanistan border and by luck they sent me again to Manchuria. Partly because I knew Chinese and I knew Japanese and I spoke a few words of Mongolian. When I came there I looked for an opportunity to cross the border, the opportunity didn't let itself to wait long. Late in November, on a very cold, frosty day, I was going on my horse toward the border and I noticed a patrol coming toward me, border controllers. Instead of waiting to be asked, I gave one shot in the air and I stopped the first one asking for identification, he showed me his identification and I motioned with my hand he can go on. In the next few minutes, other three and instead of asking, they should ask me, I asked them and I motioned them to go on and I proceeded another six miles and I came to the city of Chanchu which was four and a half miles on the other side of Kuanchanchi, the Japanese station.

ZAIDE

I came in and the Japanese guard noticed me, so I came in the police station, I took off my rifle, my two handguns, my revolver and put my hands on my head and I said I'm yours, I surrendered. Japanese authorities are very kind to me, they sent me the right way to Tokyo, Tokyo interrogated me for no more than 45 minutes, I told them that I have two gold coins in my coat and I gave my short brothers what I did and all I ask is for asylum. I found out that things have been changed in Japan too, I couldn't go any more in the act for business, so I hired myself as a helping hand on boats. They always need a hand on boats, I hired myself mostly with Dutch companies and we travelled to Indonesia in the Indian Ocean, many times visited India, asylum, loading hides, loading elephants, ivory, loading coffee, prices, most of those on the boats were Malayans, some

ZAIDE

Melbourne, Australia, I was told that there is a Jewish organization by the name HIAS, Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society (HIAS), who is trying to connect close families, I felt that my parents had sometimes might have escaped from Russia, I didn't know for sure, and so I asked Melbourne, Australia, I found a lady by the name Sposi, and I told her that I lost my family, I'd like to find somebody who is living, and I told her my name, she said to me, your name rings very much in my ears, I was in Sydney, Australia and somebody told me that somebody is looking for relations, she advised me to come a few days, I went to Perth, Western Australia, other places to look whether I can settle, and I came back to Wellington, to Melbourne, I was told that my parents succeeded to go from Russia and they succeeded through Latvia to come to England and they are interned by the British, since all Russian citizens are suspected in Russianism, so they are in an intern camp in Eastling around Southampton and she advised me to go in England and join them, fortunately I found there a Danish boat, I used to live for the past couple of years at the end, and the boat went to Rio de Janeiro to Brazil and from there to Dakar, Africa, stopped in more places, and finally I came to Southampton after 64 days, 2 o'clock in the morning, 6 in the morning I rushed to Southampton and I found that 4 hours before 2 o'clock at midnight, my parents sailed to Palestine, I found out that together with my father and mother were my older sister Devorah and my very younger brother Asriel, by my very older brother Lev and my middle brother Swinok and remained in Russia, another sister in the beginning of the revolution with her husband Memo and her name Ossera escaped to the United States, I spent a couple days upon another Denmark boat in the hopes of reaching Palestine, the gates of Palestine were tightly closed, we needed 1,500 pounds, which was an enormous amount of money and beyond even thinking I could raise it, so this boat went to Vojerovo which is a port near Danzig, Danzig I found a good Jewish community and I was advised that maybe I can go from Palestine to the Berlin Zionist office, I came to Berlin, from Berlin I was directed to Vienna, from Vienna to Prague, from Prague to Yugoslavia, back to Vienna all without success, my money is gone and finally I came to Galicia and I landed in the city of Rogno which is in Volhyn, a place where my father went after he escaped from Russia, in Rogno I found a big Jewish community and I settled there for a while and I engaged myself in a little business, my main business was I bought and I sold merchandise but secretly I helped to smuggle out Jewish people who escaped from Russia, so I helped them to go over through Poland to the United States and mostly to Palestine, being an ex-Russian soldier I knew the ins and outs, being an ex- cavalryman I was handy on the horse, so very often I made trips through the Russian border and I was successful in transferring many many refugees who escaped from Russia through Poland, the Romani proper which was a part of Poland was very easy to make false legitimation in other count of it, a passport and to send them away, I spent a considerable time, the Polish government closed their eyes since the people did not remain there and of course I was very careful not to step over into Russian territory, I did it a couple of times at the risk of life, but finally I succeeded to get my younger brother out, you know him, and I got me a vision and I went away to Athens Creek from

CHANA POUPKO

How old were you when you came to Palestine?

CHANA POUPKO

Twenty-five You were twenty-five, what year was it?

ZAIDE

I came to Israel in the beginning of February 1926, while I found my parents aged I didn't find them brought me spirit, father repeated very often that I came thirty years too late and after I came here after the Russian Revolution I should have stayed, but apparently this was in the view of God, now here we are going to stay, he engaged in a very little business in Jaffa, but shortly he bought for 65 pounds a small farm in Naback, he bought a few cows he planted vegetables and father suggested that I, my younger brother, go to learn Torah and we went back to the Lubavitcher yeshiva that was in Givat Shaul, a suburb of Jerusalem shortly afterwards I went over and I found out Kuksi yeshiva and I spent there three and a half years

CHANA POUPKO

With your brother?

ZAIDE

With my brother, yeah, in these three and a half years I learned a year and a half I learned Talmud only, the other two years I learned Yoreh De'ah, I learned laws of Choshen Mishpat and after three and a half years, for many many hours in the day, I was ordained legitimate as a rabbi with Yoreh Yoreh, Yadin Yadin Our conversation yesterday, I of course deeply, since childhood, father believed that the future of Jews is in learning Torah, especially in the great way of Russification, therefore any spare minutes he had he learned with us, besides that we learned with the teacher and he himself, being a wealthy man, inevitably every evening and every morning he devoted time to learn, especially tomorrow When I came from the Jerusalem, father was struggling with his small farm, raising vegetables and selling milk, I had to give him a hand of help, I bought a bicycle and he used to deliver the milk every morning At the same time, it started to flow in the country, the unrest from the Arabs and I had to do a little work for the Haganah that in that time came over from the Shomrim to Haganah In other words, the Haganah was in the stage of embryology and it was more some sort of illegal organization I stayed in Iraq till the beginning of 1929 I tell you that in 1947 I spent a year in Hebron, Eretz Yisrael, where in Hebron I learned mostly Choshen Mishpat and Rambam In 1949 the depressi

ZAIDE

on was in Eretz Yisrael very, very hard and he decided that I would go for a year or two abroad, maybe I would make a little money to come to Eretz Yisrael and to have a little better foundation Unemployment in Eretz Yisrael reached a terrific proportion In June 1949 I got a contract from a congregation from Baltimore and I went to the United States where I arrived on July 8th of 1929 The congregation that came with the contract were one of the finest people, however their main object was to bring a teacher to teach their children and one had to learn the English language more perfectly than I did Although they wanted me to stay, I found out that it would be better for me if I would perfect myself in the English language So therefore they relieved me from the contract and I took a position with the Talmudical Academy in Baltimore, simultaneously taking intensive courses in English The government of the United States provided

ZAIDE

Schumann, where I made tremendous progress in the English language During this time, I wrote a couple articles about the life of Narcissus Rao [name unclear] in the English paper The Morgen Journal Apparently my articles impressed there somebody and I received a letter to come there When I came there, they offered me a job The job was to travel all over the United States and to give description my impression of the life of the Jewish communities in the United States and Canada I loved the job very much.

ZAIDE

I took it immediately and I traveled in 31 states, including Alaska.

CHANA POUPKO

How long did you have this job?

ZAIDE

A year and a half After a year and a half, I was offered to go to South America, which I went, visit Cuba, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Paraguay, and many of the small countries After two years, I returned to the states and while I was in the city of Atlanta, Georgia, I received a letter, I received a telegram that my younger brother Finoja [name unclear] was with me in the states and that Robin came to Iowa best of way I was sitting in Jacksonville, Florida, and during the days of Shiva, I learned before the people The delegation came to my hotel and offered me the position of Rabbi in Jacksonville By that time, I knew fairly well the English language and I knew a good amount of Ladino This is the Spanish jargon.

CHANA POUPKO

So the Jewish people in Jacksonville, Florida at that time were mostly those who came in the end of the 19th century during the Spanish-American War?

ZAIDE

And I accepted the job in Jacksonville, Florida as a rabbi.

CHANA POUPKO

And how long were you in Jacksonville?

ZAIDE

31, five years.

CHANA POUPKO

Till when?

ZAIDE

36.

CHANA POUPKO

Till 36?

ZAIDE

While teaching the Hebrew at the Talmudical Academy in Baltimore, I used to come for Shabbos and Sunday to the city of Annapolis, the state capital of Maryland There I conducted foreign services and Sunday I gave lectures and I started to be acquainted with the rabbinical problems in the United States Although Annapolis was a very small town and mostly where there were sailors and marines from the Navy, it gave me a real idea of the problems that exist in American Jewish life Now, second in Jacksonville, I was confronted with all these problems that a rabbi is meeting in American Jewish lives Fortunately for me, the administration was very, very cooperative There was a husband by the name Mr.

ZAIDE

Edgar Malthus Lorraine, who was with me a number of years. Very learned man. There was a tiny town in Tere and there were shochtim in town and it took me only a couple months to get entrenched in that community as a rabbi and they even gave me the privilege to visit the Gainesville University for my own improvements every single day.

CHANA POUPKO

Let me ask you a question. How long did you teach at the Talmudical Academy here?

ZAIDE

About half a year.

CHANA POUPKO

Oh, yeah. Is that where you met Rabbi Feldman?

ZAIDE

Yeah Jacksonville has only one Jewish congregation besides a very small reform congregation In this congregation, I mean the one that I took, was a rabbi by the name Rabbi Benjamin A very able fellow, but apparently he was not devoted to the rabbinate because he also had some sort of a government job and he quit after a few years and went away to Israel So when I came there, I was confronted with so many problems of waiting in Mikveh to organize in the town of Tere of making clubs for the young people We established every day a shiur, a lecture in Gemara, Talmud This lecture was from seven to nine in the evening every single day except Friday night and Saturday we made when the time permitted So in the morning, I give lectures in history There was a number of Jewish organizations that I had to address in the middle of the week and since I attended a school where they taught me the art of speaking so it took me a few hours to perfect myself But I improved myself to the extent that the congregation liked the way I presented things very, very much Proud to say that I was beloved in my congregation I made an exception to all rules The congregation offered me my first job $1200 and income They told me the income is about $600 I told them I would take $1500, I didn't want any income I was the only rabbi in the United States as far as I know that had not taken any income from anybody an

ZAIDE

d all the income went to the shul Therefore the shul boasted that they had a rabbi that cost them nothing because the income they had was much more than my salary and the fourth year they paid my salary was $4000 and income from them was over $500 so they bought me a Chevrolet car for $560 as a present Since I did not take any salary I felt myself independent I was very nice and polite to my community but I did not have to bow my head to anybody since I was completely independent I served them until 1936 and my father wrote me letters and begged me to come home and as you saw I started to unrest in the Arabs and I decided to come home In the summer of 1936 I came to Eretz Yisrael and I was immediately offered the position to take hand in the Jerusalem daily paper Doar Hayom This daily paper was inclined toward the revisionist party That was a rightist party, not believe much in socialism but in the other hand they thought that the Jewish people should strengthen their defense and should deal with the foreign hands in the Arabs I didn't agree fully with their policies but I wanted the Doar Hayom to exist and after working with them for a couple months they offered me to take over the paper I invested 2,000 pounds which was in that time 10,000 dollars and I became the owner of the Jerusalem daily It was a very hard job but I liked it This paper revealed that the Palestinian admini

ZAIDE

stration was inside of the Arabs on the side of the terrorist Arabs, on the side of the mufti and since I had enough Arab friends and Jewish reporters in you I printed in the paper and the British censor kept on taking me down from the paper The result was that the paper came out white and the deficit grew from day to day because the advertisers didn't want any advertisement in a paper with nothing to read Then happened a few things that I had to do certain things for the Haganah that the British people went after my hide Too many times I needed very little ammunition The only way to get ammunition was from Sarafand where the British soldiers had their warehouses and it was needed a few people from English, Arabic, something military affairs and although reluctantly I had to join the gate He had many strokes with us in that time.

ZAIDE

They had many strokes with us at that time, that all we need is ten uniforms and a certain amount of ammunition, but strict orders, not to commit any violence, not to injure any British, not to go into an open fight. It was a very, very delicate mission, but we fulfilled it. But on one week later, the British got on our tracks, and they came to our house to look for me. Fortunately, I was in the home, but our yard was a cache for that one. And then, upon advice from father, I had to leave the country right away. I left for Cairo, and for Cairo from Cairo, I left for the States. We came back in the city of Baltimore. Coming back into the United States, later part of August 1936, September 1936, exactly on the 27th day, which was the day after Yom Kippur, I married the girl to whom I was engaged a year before, a girl from Kistum, West Virginia [place name unclear], which is my wife. My wife was a school teacher. At the time of our marriage, she took a postgraduate course in Columbia University, New York, and because of that, the Jewish National Fund asked me to make trips around the country, especially in the State of New York, New England, to try to get money enough to buy land in Eretz Yisrael. I spent with them about a year's time. But that time, my wife finished her course in university, and came to the town of Cincinnati, where I bought a grocery store.

ZAIDE

The grocery store was pretty successful, but always you have a job, of course, of closing shabbos. So after a year's time, I sold it with a reasonable profit, and I accepted a job as a rabbi in the province of Saskatchewan, in western Canada, in the Edenbridge, which was one of the colonies that Baron Hirsch established in the 1895 or around the 20th century. I was there for a while, and I think I did good for the community, but since my wife and a real child remained in the States, I didn't want to drag her in the wilderness. I came back to the States, and I undertook a new enterprise. I went into the wholesale paper and notion business, with my younger brother, Azriel, and we settled in the city in Washington, where we lived for the past 40-some years. Coming to Washington, we found a Jewish community, not as big as Baltimore, but still a fine Jewish community. And I got a quintinence of the rabbis and a few Jews who worked in the government, and we established a club called Chavrusa. The purpose of this club was to promote Hebrew culture and Hebrew language, and to help to enrich Israel. And pretty soon, I got the idea of establishing in Washington a day school. We had the entire United States about a dozen day schools, and these were the only schools where a child could get a third of education.

ZAIDE

The afternoon schools that had been all over the United States proved to be a failure. The child came from school 3 o'clock, he was tired and exhausted, and he never was too keen to go to the Hebrew school. But the days proved a success. I spoke to several of the rabbis, and finally, in the early part of 1942, we decided to organize this school, and we organized it under the name Hebrew Academy of Washington, which name I originated, and lately it spread all over the United States. The first president were the gentlemen, Mr. Weitz, and I became the first vice president and the chairman of the Board of Education. It was a very hard task. We had much opposition. More than anything else is from the fellow Jews who thought that the Hebrew Academy will put a wall between us, now Christian neighbors, and the children will never know good English. But it turned out that the Hebrew Academy children are practically all of them, honor students, and ten later of this moment it exists already 32 years, and we have, Baruch Hashem, close to 450 children. And it's right now the accepted school all over the United States. Shortly to Washington, I became a member, one of the biggest children, founder, a rabbi, a very fine gentleman, Rabbi Levinson. We became very friendly, and we established a blatt Gemara daily, which I conducted for many, many years. We also have recently a Hebrew club.

ZAIDE

We established a daily blatt Gemara. We used to conduct in my house, once a week, attended by not many, four, five, sometimes eight. In the Hebrew Academy we also established a blatt Gemara that I lectured for 24 years, every Sunday for teachers, for fathers, parents of the children, and for the principal and other rabbis. All I can say is, during this time I made a number of trips to Israel, which during this time became the state of Israel, and I hope to meet Hashem shortly to settle in Israel permanently.